WHCHEN

Following discussion posts are selected from BBS debate on ‘democracy’ at www.anti-cnn.com , please directly visit the website for more details as I only selected and copied a bit to incite the discussion. It is a good debate.

http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/thread-1071-1-1.html

Why Chinese do not make democracy and human rights big topics?

Hello,

I have a question and suggestion for my Chinese readers here:

Why not make human rights, press freedom and democracy big topics from Chinese point of view?

I like the idea of human rights, think that the idea of human rights describe a hope for a better living of the people and I think that many people in the world and probably in China, too, like the idea. I wonder, why the oficial China seems to be so passive in this international discussion and I really would appreciate a more forwarding role of China in this discussion. I believe, China might be proud of it’s practices of good govermnment, their way to make a better living people possible and their way to protect their people against black propaganda like we witness it now in the transatlantic Tibet campaign.

So why not talk about democracy? I think photos like this from Aleksandar Vodevic may be a good start an international discussion on topics like democracy, freedom and human rights:

I think, the best way to immunize people against brutal coordinated attacks with black propaganda like we just saw it on Tibet province is to open their eyes in advance. When China opens the eyes of their own people, I hope, they might open the eyes of Western people, too, and make them help to come to a better living. That’s why I appreciate this forum a lot.

In the west I see a big problem: nice ideas like human rights, press freedom and democracy were hijacked by a bunch of people thinking only for their own faith. They have organizations like NED, HRW and RSF financed by the US government and acting as CIAs gunboats to give legitimation to commit really ugly crimes like attack wars and bloody civil wars.

See here an example of what NATO engagement in the name of human rights means in reality:

http://worldivided.com/2008/04/1 … -to-prosecute-them/

I regret that China is not more actively promoting human rights, like they really are, and not what the cynical covert CIA dog “Human Rights Watch” tells the people about it. Why to let such CIA backed organizations the moral supremacy to define, what human Rights are? See here in this movie how the US government uses human rights:

http://www.leadingtowar.com/

I would appreciate many more Chinese reports like these:

http://www.mein-parteibuch.org/b … ted-states-in-2007/

As I see, Russian government started to act in this way, too, they will found a Russian-funded institute on human rights and democracy in Brussels, Europe:

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20071106/86726246.html

Guess what? The people in Western governments are not really happy with this institution . The don’t like to loose their possibility to control the definition about, what human rights, freedom and democracy is, because it may break their propaganda of the moral superiority of the west.

So, I would just e happy, if some Chinese people may explain me, if China plans to do some more in this moral defition fields. I would appreciate it and I’m sure other Western people would appreciate it. I would be happy, if this post would be translated to Chinese and forwarded to Chinese people and look very much forward to answers.

Beste regards

Ein Katzenfreund

I am on the side of China

I guess, you all misunderstood me. I am on the side of China. Please don’t think of me like an ignorant Western. I do my best to understand and uncover reality. See my recent posts if you want to understand my knowledge or not knowledge in understanding.

And, if you like, see here a view which I share on the recent happenings in Tibet:

http://www.mein-parteibuch.org/blog/caught-in-the-act/

You may follow the links in that article, maybe some of these is new for you, too.

>Dalai Lama?
I think, he is a puppet of US. See here:
http://www.timbomb.net/buddha/archive/msg00087.html

See here some words about, who was master of the puppet “Dalai Lama”. The master’s name was William Colby:

http://books.google.com.my/books … jKDtkY5VY&hl=en

>What  your opioion for Kosovo affair and war in Iraq, for human rights?
It’s ugly crimes. See my link above what happened in Kosovo in the name of democracy and freedom:

“Kosovo leaders kidnapped Serbs and sold their organs, UN pressured not to prosecute them”:
http://worldivided.com/2008/04/1 … -to-prosecute-them/

See here again my link above showing who is guilty for Iraq.

“Leading to war”:
http://www.leadingtowar.com/

I like the whole world to see these crimes exposed. See the picture and the links I provided in my post opening this thread.

Aleksandar Vodevic, who draw the photo I posted above, wrote that the US has bombed at least these countries – all in the name of “democracy”, “freedom” and “human rights”:

Korea and China 1950-53 (Korean War)

Guatemala 1954

Indonesia 1958

Cuba 1959-1961

Guatemala 1960

Congo 1964

Laos 1964-73

Vietnam 1961-73

Cambodia 1969-70

Guatemala 1967-69

Grenada 1983

Lebanon 1983, 1984 (both Lebanese and Syrian targets)

Libya 1986

El Salvador 1980s

Nicaragua 1980s

Iran 1987

Panama 1989

Iraq 1991 (Persian Gulf War)

Kuwait 1991

Somalia 1993

Bosnia 1994, 1995

Sudan 1998

Afghanistan 1998

Yugoslavia 1999

Yemen 2002

Iraq 1991-2003 (US/UK on regular basis)

Iraq 2003-05

Afghanistan 2001-05

There were more countries attacked by the US in the name of “democracy”, “human rights” and “press freedom”. Tibet is a coordinated psychological warfare attack from the US on China. The results of  psychological warfare can be worse than bombs.

I want to stop this NATO war politics in the name of “democracy”, “human rights” and “press freedom” and I see there common interests with China. I want to ask China for help in doing so.

Honestly,
Ein Katzenfreund
www.mein-parteibuch.com

Replied by Jigong

Katzenfreund,

Pls…  Pls…  Don’t try to deceive the Chinese that western style democracy is the answer and the solution to all ills!

Timor Leste is having its second democratically elected president. The life of the people are still among the worst on this planet! Their president nearly died of gunshot from the rebel recently.

The Philippines has been having American style democracy for many years. The countries was the second most affluent country in Asia. Now, it is among the poorest, exporting millions of workers, including domestic helpers!

I have not come across any country which became prosperous, peaceful and stable as a result of western style democracy. The only exception is Singapore. However, for many years, Singapore was criticised by the west as authoritative, dictatorial, non-democratic, police state, etc etc.!

Prosperity of Europeans countries was not due to democracy. They became rich because they amassed wealth from their colonies with cheap or free labour and cheap or free land of plenty!

USA, Canada, Australi, New Zealand, etc. became prosperous because  the European migrants stumbled onto vast pieces of fertile land full of crude oil, minerals, etc, FREE! They just robbed the land from NATIVE AMERICANS without paying a single cent and started to call the place theirs!!

Replied by  neomugen

It’s rather simple why China is not ready for democracy.  You can’t have a 13 billions populated nation, with 70% of them that can barely read and write to properly operate democracy.

The less-educated will be easily herd as sheeps to vote for interest groups that not necessary have the best intention for the country.  I’m talking about militia groups, the rich and the famous, or even mafias.  Ellis Island immigrants just off the boat and were herd into voting for someone they heard for the fist time back in the early 1800′s rings a bell?

With the current single-party socialist government, it has its up and down sides.  It runs a dedicated track to speed up the economic development of the country without the hassels of congress vetos and lobbyist.  The down side is, it has absolute authorities can tend to abuse power at times.  But in contrast to popular western believes, the average Chinese in China has ALL the freedom as ones outside AS LONG as you dont go political and anti-government.  So to phrase it correctly, the Chinese do not have political rights, but has absolute freedom and human rights.  Once you cross that line of political right, you will lose your human rights and freedom (jail, detention..etc) This is CCP’s version of “Clear and Present Danger”.   A large number of Muslims in US were arrested and detained post 9/11, some of them are stil in jail somewhere without public hearing and due process of law.   So where is the human rights for them?  You have to understand the role of the government is to rule a nation, not individuals.  It will do what it sees fit.

India received it independence in the same era as China became communism.  India has 11 billions of population and runs a democratic government, they are decades ahead of China in terms of economical reform (China started in the 80′s).  And simply compare the two nations will see which one achived more in interms of development(see GPD and PPP rankings).   So do not discredit communism entirely…it’s just a name, as long as the government adapts to the changing environment and puts the country on the right track, it’s a good government.

Proper education for the entire population and a stable economy are the fundamentals of a democratic country.  China is not there yet, but on its way to achiving its goal.  The elementary kids in China today are now participating in voting for their favorite teacher for principla and counselors, this is the right direction for building democracy starting from our new generation.  You simply can’t have overnight democracy in China, it will bring chaos to our society.  Please give the time and space China needs to evolve itself.

[ Last edited by neomugen at 22-4-2008 21:38 ]

Replied by kateS

Yes, I think the westerners, especially ordinary people, are not realizing that their action from the good will to improve human right is actually tricked by the government. I don’t believe the media when I was in China, so I tried to listen to VOA. Now I am here and I realized that no media is to be believed. They are not lying. But part of the truth and the way to tell the story can distort the whole picture and lead to totally different conclusion. It sounds sad but I have to judge the thing I see and hear myself.  

It is a very sensitive time and actually there are no much we can do except help the communication. I think it is one thing the Chinese media did very bad that they don’t help the communication. They tell the Chinese all the good things going on in the country but don’t tell others what is China. Not only media I guess. For international communication, there is much stronger connection in economy but very few in the level of culture.

From my own feeling, I think most American around me are friendly but the lack of communication and understanding is obvious. They also don’t care much about what is going on in China. Actually it is normal because the countries are so far away and it almost have nothing to do with daily life except that you have special interest in other’s culture or economic connection. Media is their only way to look out and they form their opinion on it. What I am a bit worried about is the education. I didn’t feel it here personally, but I hear that some are trying to make Chinese appear evil in their historical textbooks. That will be a bad impact. I will not care if you say China is poor and it is true in most part of China, but if someone say Chinese are evil, or like what Jack said, and make it a stereotype to the whole generation, that will be a big problem.

There are some very interesting experience after I went abroad. I used to discuss with many international students in my trip to Canada, basically Europeans and they always say China is a “sleeping giant”. I told them China is not that big and strong as they thought and there are too many problems during the development and most people are still quite poor. And I still remember a German answered me that “That’s why we call you sleeping, because you don’t realize how powerful you can be.” I can only laugh and tell them if you have a chance to go to China, you will see what I mean. But now, I tell people you should visit China because it is not as bad as you think.

Totally different attitude and I think behind it is the biased information we get. The media either exaggerate the improvement in China or go to an extreme to defame China and Chinese using political topics. Anyway, there is no “free media” even though they can criticize the government, they will not really violate it as long as the profit are the same and they want to survive.  

The current affair is a good lesson for many Chinese I think. Chinese are very humble and the western world used to be the dream of millions of people because there is better life, more freedom, friendly people, etc. But now they see it is not a perfect world. I hope it can also be a signal for the westerns, that China is changing, but it’s a shame that maybe most people cannot see this from the media. We are more conservative but we learn to open in the past 30 years. We want to keep open and the Olympic Game is a good chance. It is the westerners who keep to the stereotype and refuse to open to us. And some are even trying to force us to close the door.

When thinking about this, I feel like to cry that since more then 150 years ago, the nation struggled to survive the war, to keep the land, to drag itself through starvation, to gradually open up and develop relationship with other countries with totally different social system and values, to improve the life for its people. Every step is very difficult and we worked so hard to make it. But now those who used to appear so friendly are trying to exclude us out. We are still trying, that’s why so many Chinese are protesting but the government take no action at all. Even though the people feel hurt and sometimes the anger also goes against the government because they don’t speak out for us, we can understand their difficulty and the determination to keep open to the outside world. We can be emotional but they cannot. If the government is irritated and takes actions against the western world, it means peace is ended, or at least, development is ended. Actually the current trend is already pretty bad in terms of the international environment for China. Thanks to the media.  It is a personal point of view but I think most Chinese will agree, that we are not ambitious, we have no interest to tell others what to do, all what we want is just a better life.  And all what I can say is, it is so hard.

[ Last edited by kateS at 23-4-2008 03:28 ]

Replied by Katzenfreund

@zodiacking
>”Human rights” – I would rather to call it “Common Rights”.
>When you fully respect one’s “human rights” you might offend the ‘human rights” of other people.
Yes, perfect. How are the “Common Rights” of the people in Iraq respected and who is violating them? I would wished China would go and tell the world louder and more on such Chinese views.

>”Democracy” – maybe I am a bit offending but I don’t think democracy exists on the world.
Yes, great point. Western style of democracy is an illusion. Is it democracy when elections are rigged with PSYOPs like false-flag-terror? Western way of democracy is to place bombs and kill their people, and than blame somebody else for the terror with your biased media, so the people will vote for their masters again. Have a look for “Bologna massacre” to understand this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strage_di_Bologna

Italian secret service placed bomb in a train station and killed 85 people, for the sole reason of blaming “the communists” afterwards, so the communist party would loose elections. I think Chinese style of government is far better than this “western style of democracy”.

>”Press Freedom” – I personally think this is really not a big issue as techs developing fast
In western countries press freedom is a very big issue. In western countries people are punished for seeking truth. In the western world the press is a powerful instrument of deception. You all are witness to this horrible “Free Tibet campaign”. In western countries the media is not allowed to report truth. The media is not even allowed to ask for truth on 9/11.

I think, China has nothing to hide, the Chinese government has much better ethics than western countries governments. That’s why I wonder, that China is so quiet even when brutally attacked with a bunch of stupid propaganda lies.

@StevenL
>I do support the idea that chinese goverment shall make a really “loud speaker”
Me too. But I think a “loud speaker” would not be enough. I think, it would be clever if the Chinese government would build up it’s own ethic organisations to research on comparisons of ethic standards in the world. Such ethic NGOs could feed the “loud speaker” with arguments. And it can dig facts and destroy the illusion, that the west has anyhow a high ethic standards in “human rights”, “press freedom” or “democracy”. The opposite is true, everywhere were you look in the western world, you see the western ethic standards are just fake.

@kateS
>But how can you imaging the people in a country in war (think about Iraq) or
>of very poor economy talking about democracy or human right?
Oh yes, I can. I think the most basic human right is that there is no war and no bombs drop on peoples head. And I think, the people are really interested in this. By the way, I conviced even in the totally brainwashed USA people will start to realize sooner or later that their country is at war. If you live in the USA, I would guess, that you have heard of “subprime” problems. Have you never thought, that it will soon turn out, that the subprime problems is the cost of war in Iraq?

>how long does it take for the western countries to build the social system they have now?
I think, in most western countries people ask themselves the opposite question. How long does it need for a gang of thiefs and liars in a democratic government to destroy the social system they have now?

>I don’t think the life here is much better than what I had back in China.
I absolutely agree with you. China is on a good way – it’s western countries who lost completely their way to a better life.  It was the USA, where the government can’t find any other way to hide their crimes then let airplanes fly in skyscrapers, brainwash people and tell it was “terrorists” who turned of US air defense. Ask people in the USA how media did – I’ld better say did not – truth seeking in case of 9/11.

It is the western coutries governments who have reason to fear talking with their people on true nature of “democracy”, reality of “human rights” and illusion of “press freedom” in western countries.

Sincerely yours,
Ein Katzenfreund

China is a hope for the world

@huang1127
>Talking of democracy is one thing,  Realizing it is another thing.
That’s especially true for Western democracies. See, we here in the West were promised that our democracy will bring governments t power, which respect and fullfil in wisdom peoples wishes for a better living.

What we really got with our democracy is the opposite. Our western governments are most criminal in the world. The millions of murdered people by our western democratic governments are already uncountable. All these horrible wars were made in the name of “democracy”, “human rights” and “freedom”. The only thing, in what the democratic governments in the Western world are really masters, is propaganda.

That’s the nature of western democracy: who is better in propaganda wins the elections. The most effective propaganda – black propaganda – is based on crimes. Powerful people just do horrible crimes to blame others. That’s the way elections are won. Chinese government has not the problem that they have to commit serious crimes to win elections. Chinese government is not in the need to commit crimes for propaganda reasons. Chinese government can therefore respect the wish of the people. In my understanding that’s democracy.

As we live in a globalized world, there are only very few power centres left in the world. Most of the world is ruled by the US moguls organized in organisations like CFR or Bilderberger. The strongest US weapon to control the world is propaganda – or media – like they call it. The US media win battles that the US military weapons never could win. Once the US got control of a country, they put in effect there a puppet government and control the minds of the people with the propagnda of their media. They tell the people, that the tyranny they live in is superior, name it “democracy”, “freedom” or “human rights”, but the facts are diffrent. The US governments started countless wars and killed many millions of people in these wars. War is not peace. War is not freedom. War is not human right.

The most important power center independant from the USA is China. Chinese governments didn’t make wars. China has not to hide for “human rights”, “freedom” or “democracy”. China can be proud of their standards in topics like “human rights”, “freedom” and “democracy”. US and their NATO allies should shame for their low standards of “human rights”, “freedom” and “democracy”. I wished China would speak that out loudly.

China is a hope for the world to overcome US type of world tyranny.

Sincerely,
Ein Katzenfreund

Thank You 

@brainwasher
Thank you a lot for the link. Organizations like “China Society for Human Rights Studies” is exactly what I am looking for. I may tell them a lot about the cynical difference of “Human rights” in theory and practice in western countries like Germany. Just look this example here: A 70 year old man was sent to prison because he asked a lawyer if he can afford to deal with his case – he wanted to see his granddaughter.

http://suboptimales.wordpress.co … m-weg-in-den-knast/

Such cases of human right violatons are not exceptions, but common practice in Germany. Western media and the western human right organisations are systematically denying such absurd cases of human right violations in Western countries. As inpependent internet journalistis in Germany we want the world to know about the cynical practice of “human rights” in Germany.

@fruitlover
Please don’t give too much respect to Western political system. We have and bunch of liars, crooks and criminals occupying Western governments. The Western governments are used to kick “human rights” with feets and they can do that, because they know, there does not exist any Western media or “human rights” organization who will unveil the curtain and make their real behaviour public.

Uncover the western “human rights” NGOs to sink the CIAs gunboats

@brainwasher
It’s hard for people when they discover that reality is completely diffrent from what they thought. To make the people understand it need a lot of facts, and repeating them a lot of times. The swindle of Western free world is probably the most powerful lie in the world.

@Jigong
You are absolutely true. Western style of media driven democracy is nothing else than a special US way to fool people to believe the government is legitimately serving their interests. When they can’t persuade people in elections to vote for their puppets using ugly lies and propaganda, then they rig the elections, if that doesn’t work then they kill the opposite candidates, if that doesn’t help than they bring democracy falling as bombs from the sky. Hamas election victory is a good proof for it.

I believe the best way to make people immune against western propaganda is to make them see what kind of mass wurders (there is a stringent chain from Korea over Vietnam to Iraq) are ruling these democracies. One piece to open peoples eyes is to expose the lies of the media like anti-cnn.com does it. I think it would be even more effective to make people understand that this “Tibet-propaganda” is nothing special for CNN – they are just used to lie.

Besides exposing the lies of their media I think it’s very important to expose the bias of their “human rights” gunboats. These gunboats seem to be full of ethics and moral, which they use to incite bloody civil wars on behalf of their masters. Some decades ago, this propaganda work was done directly by CIA, which I believe is still the masters behind these gunboats.

When the CIA network was partly exposed when operation mockingbird was partly uncovered, they have hidden part of the CIA media control network in these “human rights” NGOs. If you don’t know about, have a look on Operation Mockingbird, it’s very important proof where western media bias is coming from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird

The US government spent more then a billion Dollar a year just for covert propaganda already thirty years ago.

To understand what crimes US government people were used to do just for propaganda reasons, have a look at Operation Northwoods:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

This bloody operation was not realized, but the planning is real and other incidents show that such behaviour was common practice. The most important: Northwoods and Mockingbird are not speculation, but proven with US government documents. What the CIA does nowadays, we don’t know exactly, but when we know history, we can better guess what’s propaganda nowaday. What I see is that the US backed NGOs – I call them gunboats – do exactly such jobs as were done before by CIA.

But these gunboats have a problem: when acting in concert and all telling similar lies – like it is the case with Tibet campaign – we can unmask the whole network of covert CIA “human rights” gunboats. When unmasked that these NGOs are biaesed without any moral, they run out of credibility and can’t attack any more.

So Reporter Without Borders was unmasked here:

http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/thread-1192-1-1.html

Fine, let’s try people to make it common knowledge that people know about it. If we manage that, the gunboat “Reporter Without Borders” will sink and whenever there will be a press release from “Reporter Without Borders” in the future people just will laugh.

And then we can look for example at “Human Rights Watch” and will find out, that they have they have the same moral deficit as “Reporter Without Borders” and are as well financed by US government to incite bloody civil wars in other countries. That will sink, too, when people just laugh about this propaganda puppet us the CIA.

And then “Amnesty International”. That organisation suffers a similar problem of not being independent. I believe AI will sink to the ground of shame, when somebody will give it a closer look and knock at the sidewall. The same with “Transparency International”. All these NGO ethic gunboats becomes ridiculos, if people know the details about it.

That’s our idea. We name it critical journalism and freedom of press. A big problem is for us to get the attention we need to spread facts. Western censorship regime stricly harass people who unmask the covert the structures. In Mein Parteibuch we already collected lot’s of “funny” facts about these NGOs.

Thanks for your attention, sincerely

Ein Katzenfreund